Talk:Adolf Hitler
Long OTL If the OTL intro is too long, please feel free to edit it. It just occured to me with all the World War II AH, coupled with the danger of anonymous types screwing with the article, that it was probably best that we have a more detailed bio. I also shuffled around some of the subsections by most like OTL to least. TR 19:02, 11 December 2008 (UTC) Head of State We've got him in German Chancellors (OTL), German Chancellors (ATL), Fuhrers, and Dictators. Do we really need him in Miscellaneous Heads of State too? What's not covered by any of the specific categories? Turtle Fan 21:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC) :I forgot to remove that category. TR 22:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC) ::Ah. I thought I had missed something. Not having read all the stories in which Hitler appears, I couldn't rule out the possibility that in one of them he held a title that wasn't covered by any of the others. Turtle Fan 00:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC) Article rating I was surprised to see that this article was only rated one star. I think, all things being equal, it's a pretty good article. TR 18:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC) :Rated by whom? I've never noticed ratings. Can we manipulate these stars ourselves? I agree that this article deserves better. Turtle Fan 01:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC) ::At the bottom of the page. We can't manipulate, no. It records our individual votes. TR 02:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC) :::I'm looking, I don't see it. :::We should have the option of deactivating it. I mean, this is our site, after all. Turtle Fan 19:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC) ::::If you are using the old skin, it's not there. TR 00:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC) :::::That would do it, then. Turtle Fan 03:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC) Adolf Hitler in Curious Notions While that's all no doubt true, there are a couple of points where Hitler was directly referenced in the text that are probably more germaine to the TL than what has been added. For the most part, the Xtimers commented on how the world was somewhat better without Hitler, and the fact that the Kaiser, unlike Hitler, tolerated Jews, which gave Germany a leg up on the a-bomb.TR 21:54, March 4, 2010 (UTC) Speaking of Curious Notions, the gladiator is mentioned twice in this article.--Zmflavius 02:29, March 21, 2010 (UTC) Speaking of washing your car, I had ice cream earlier tonight. Turtle Fan 03:17, March 21, 2010 (UTC) Thanks Zm and TF both. TR 03:25, March 21, 2010 (UTC) :What did I do? Turtle Fan 03:26, March 21, 2010 (UTC) You made me laugh. TR 05:40, March 21, 2010 (UTC) :I was hoping you'd say something like that. Turtle Fan 17:50, March 21, 2010 (UTC) ::HT should have had the character use Mussolini in the canton of evil councillors as a shout-out to Niven and Pournelle's version of Inferno. ML4E 01:44, March 22, 2010 (UTC) :::If he had Literary Allusions would gain two sections. Turtle Fan 02:05, March 22, 2010 (UTC) Re: Rollback of GusF's edit The Great War remained the "Great War" in 191. It's name never changed. TR 17:06, July 3, 2010 (UTC) :Also, World War I takes you to the historical conflict, which is very different despite attempts at parallelism even then. Turtle Fan 20:04, July 3, 2010 (UTC) Historical Bogyman I know that Hitler was an evil man, but what does it mean that in The Gladiator) that he was remember as an "historical bogyman" along with Capitalism? -- 14:40, December 28, 2015 (UTC)Jacob Chesley the Alternate Historian :It doesn't say he was remembered that way along with Capitalism. :But in TGlad, Hitler is remembered is more or less the same way he is in OTL--as a personification of everything about our worst impulses as a species. TR (talk) 16:02, December 28, 2015 (UTC) ::It says on the Fascism article that Capitalism joined Fascism as an historical bogyman. Sorry about that, I mentioned the wrong article! However, I now get that the remembence of Hitler in The Gladiator as an abomination of mankind.-- 15:05, December 29, 2015 (UTC)Jacob Chesley the Alternate Historian :::It's often convenient, in dictatorships, to point out how awful other dictatorships, so one's subjects don't start believing they're in the worst possible situation. If the example of how much worse things can be is historical, so much the better, as they're dead and gone and state-sponsored historians can construct their legacies however the powers that be want. Thus, Hitler is an incredibly useful propagada tool, in any timeline. Turtle Fan (talk) 21:50, December 29, 2015 (UTC) References to Historical Figures and Events The latest addition of a "Phantom Tolbukhin" sub-section is a perfect example of why we need this. My understanding is that minor references such as this (and given it is an "Oblique contemporary reference", I take it he isn't named) would be moved to the "Historical References" article leaving the individual "Historical Character" articles with only material that is pertinent to the story. Really, in "Phantom Tolbukhin" it is Nazis win on Eastern Front that is relevant, so a Hitler sub-section is superfluous for the story. ML4E (talk) 15:42, July 18, 2016 (UTC) :Heads of state and/or government get a free pass to be kept, regardless of how minor, according to a statement by TR. In the Phantom story, the German soldiers are referred to as Hitlerites. While this doesn't confirm that Hitler is the current Führer, it stands to reason that HT would have told us if it were otherwise.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:11, August 2, 2016 (UTC) Days of Infamy? In Hitler name checked in the Days of Infamy series?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:11, August 2, 2016 (UTC) :Literally he is name checked--no substance whatsoever. TR (talk) 22:43, August 2, 2016 (UTC) ::If he's name checked, it should probably go on his page. Something like "Because the invasion of Hawaii kept the United States tied up in the Pacific, Hitler was able to wage Germany's war in Europe and North Africa without American hindrance." And then a brief summary (2 or 3 sentences) of Germany's progress in the war during both volumes. This would be consistent with most of the European and Asian heads of state in Southern Victory, the contemporary references to Victoria of Britain, Christian X of Denmark in TWTPE, and Hirohito's various timelines.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 23:08, August 2, 2016 (UTC) :::I don't know. A WWII story, even one set exclusively in the Pacific, can't help name-checking Hitler now and then. So a Hitler entry on that page would be a never-ending stream of "Hitler did this, Hitler did that." It would overwhelm the page to an even greater extent than Shakespeare did Lit Allusions before we gave him his own. And I am not suggesting that we need a Hitler References page; that would be of no interest whatsoever to anyone, since it would just be a million lines giving examples over and over that he sucked. If the DoI reference is so fleeting, I'd sooner leave it out altogether than go down that rabbit hole. Turtle Fan (talk) 00:26, August 3, 2016 (UTC) ::::In any case, "Hitler was able to wage Germany's war in Europe and North Africa without American hindrance" is a false statement. For instance, the US and Britain conducted Operation Torch, the amphibious landing in North Africa in November, 1942 right on schedule and Lend-Lease continued to the USSR. The emphasis in DoI is on the Pacific Theater and anything about Europe can be covered more intuitively in the Germany article. I am not very supportive of even a "Historical References" entry. Definitely not a Hitler article sub-section. ML4E (talk) 17:35, August 4, 2016 (UTC) Minor references I'm thinking Ils ne passeront pas, The Guns of the South, and possibly The Gladiator (novel) can be moved to References to Historical Figures in Turtledove's Work.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 06:58, August 4, 2016 (UTC) :See my above objection. If that doesn't carry, then not TG. Turtle Fan (talk) 13:58, August 4, 2016 (UTC) ::He looms too large in Tglad. They worry about Hitler as much as they admire Marx (or Lenin or Stalin), so that shouldn't be moved. Since I think creating the "Ils ne passeront pas" section was ill-advised in the first place, but since HT went out of his way to create that reference, I prefer that, if we MUST point out his pseudo-role there (and I guess, since HT did, we probably should, too), then it should be in an unobtrusive fashion like the references page. GotS is probably the same way. ::I don't disagree with TF's point about WWII settings and Hitler, but since both Inpp and GotS are both non-WWII works, they are appropriate for the references page. TR (talk) 15:20, August 4, 2016 (UTC) :::I would also move "Hot War" entry, at least as it is currently written. Maybe "Cayos in the Stream" too, even if he is the current leader of Germany in the story as well as "The Phantom Tolbukhin" since his reference there is incidental to the story. ML4E (talk) 17:35, August 4, 2016 (UTC) ::::I could accept INPP and GotS, but no more. Cayos and Tolbukhin are WWII stories (of a sort), and in THW, with the flowers still fresh on the graves of the war dead, things should be treated the same way. Turtle Fan (talk) 23:33, August 4, 2016 (UTC) :::::With respect to Hot War, that's why I said "as it is currently written". I think it needs to be beefed up if we keep it here. Cayos and Tolbukhin I don't feel strongly about but the sections are anemic because Hitler is incidental. However, I won't object to keeping them since, as TF says, he is the leader of Germany at the time of the stories. ML4E (talk) 19:14, August 5, 2016 (UTC) ::::::That was you? It's unsigned and I guess I just assumed it was Jonathan. If there truly isn't more to be said about Hitler in HW, you may be right, but we should shake the tree a bit first. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:30, August 5, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Oh bugger. Okay, for the record, I added my User Id and date stamp from the history. ML4E (talk) 20:41, August 5, 2016 (UTC) :::::::Hey, no skin off my nose. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:18, August 6, 2016 (UTC) :::::Oh, what of DoI? ML4E (talk) 19:14, August 5, 2016 (UTC) ::::::I think the standard should be, WWII stories say, references from works of other eras go, unless there's some particular significance to them. Turtle Fan (talk) 20:30, August 5, 2016 (UTC) Trump in See Also Look, nothing in the ast 48 hours has filled me with any confidence for the next 4 years, but I think it's still a little early to stick Trump in here. TR (talk) 19:56, January 22, 2017 (UTC) :I'd rather place the burden of proof on him to show that he's not a fascist. His boss is one, and his rhetoric to date has been terrifyingly Hitleresque. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:38, January 23, 2017 (UTC) ::After Spicer's whinging about the inauguration numbers, fuck it, it can stay. TR (talk) 16:34, January 23, 2017 (UTC) ::Doesn't this image look good? http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Special:DoubleRedirects. It will be gone tomorrow so enjoy. ML4E (talk) 16:47, January 23, 2017 (UTC) :::Damn, what was it? I missed it. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:56, January 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::Trump's name with a line through it. It was a deleted redirect. Those hang out in a cache for about 24 hours after they are deleted. 03:23, January 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::Ah. Can't wait till we see that for real. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:49, January 26, 2017 (UTC) The Gladiator TGlad section can probably go to hist refs. The first part is the same as how the USSR viewed him in OTL, and the second part is the Inferno homework bit, where all the other guys from that have already been MFC'd.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:05, March 13, 2017 (UTC) :What makes you think the answer has changed from the last you suggested this? TR (talk) 18:50, March 13, 2017 (UTC) ::You'd think seeing the old saw about hope springing eternal validated would be more inspiring. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:50, March 13, 2017 (UTC) Reformatting page It's probably time to reformat this page so the story boxes are in the story subsections, as with the Joseph Stalin page.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:31, September 26, 2017 (UTC) See also I don't mind the inclusion of the Kaisers in the "see also". We've used a few see alsos to direct users to office holders whose tenure coincided with other people in other timelines or OTL. TR (talk) 17:37, March 15, 2018 (UTC) :Seems a little extreme to me given the nature of Hitler's rule but I am not firm on the issue. I am just tired of Jonathan's unilateral changes without discussion. Lets see what Turtle Fan has to say. ML4E (talk) 17:54, March 15, 2018 (UTC) :I think I would take it out. (And I too loathe Jonathan's loose cannon tendencies.) Turtle Fan (talk) 21:24, March 18, 2018 (UTC)